Curse

Shriketalon · Jan 17, 2010, 11:59 PM // 23:59

I've got another discussion topic to throw out, gentlemen. Cue the peanut gallery.

What do you think of the state of Guild Wars bosses? Not the glowing, see-them-on-the-street ones in the instances that give elite skills, but the final bosses of the campaigns, the end bosses of dungeons, the climactic fights that mark the end of a great endeavor.

A lot of elements in GW have improved over time; zones grew more dynamic and open from the restrictive corridors they once were, mobs grew more synergistic and tactical rather than simply spamming ten of the same beastie, and travel struck a balance between requiring storyline progression and still allowing exploration and free movement.

But what about the final bosses?

What were the most enjoyable boss fights you have encountered, and what made them interesting? What were the most boring, irritating, or frustrating, and what made them so? What do you think about the state of Big Bosses in GW, and how would you like to see them improved for the future?

To start off, but feel free to branch out....

-Do you find the use of flat immunities, like Dhuum's total resistance to conditions or Mallyx's ability to basically negate all hexes and conditions to be a useful way of changing the strategies, or a needless restriction on classes that use those abilities and an unwillingness to make bosses capable of handling such problems?
-Do you like the way most bosses cast and move "just like us", using the same skill basis as all other monsters and humans?
-Are proxy monsters, like in the fight with Abaddon and the Iron Forgeman, who become more akin to environmental effects, enjoyable battles to represent something larger than life?

What are the greatest joys and worst offenses of fighting Big Bosses in GW, and how might we mitigate the bad while encouraging the good?

Thoughts?

Voodoo Rage · Jan 18, 2010, 12:04 AM // 00:04

All I know is that Cyndr the Mountain Heart was the bane of my existence the first time I went through EOTN. (Now it's ridiculously easy with life steal skills).

Copenhagen Master · Jan 18, 2010, 12:12 AM // 00:12

I would think the boss that give me a hard time only in Hard mode is the Charr boss Chaelse Flameshielder in Grothmar Wardowns. Stupid thing is surrounded by so many other healers and constant rezzes. That not even including all the Elementalist charrs with firestorm and MS. That boss has always been a pain for me. Another boss if NOT careful when fighting is is in NF Droajam, Mage of the Sands IN hard mode. I usually always party wipe at least once when trying to vanquishing that area

thematrix114 · Jan 18, 2010, 12:28 AM // 00:28

I just fought the boss from defend droknars forge with my guildleader and heroes. Very anticlimactic (in short very easy).

Reformed · Jan 18, 2010, 12:31 AM // 00:31

To answer your main questions...

No, they encourage gimmick builds to counter immunity to entire portions of the game's design. Total immunity shouldn't even be considered without some type of vulnerability, nor should these new absurd +100,000hp totals. Dhuum is slightly more forgivable than Mallyx is in this regard because at least this time it's only conditions that are useless.

I'm not sure what you mean by the second one, the major "bosses" often use extremely powerful monster skills. If you just meant regular bosses they aren't anything fancy, just number buffed versions of their standard counterparts.

Abaddon and the Iron Forgeman were interesting fights...the first time you do them. They did a great job building up suspense for Abaddon in particular but what you have to do to actually "kill" him is very tedious.

Captain Bulldozer · Jan 18, 2010, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Over all, the end campaign bosses could probably be considered a let down by today's standards. I don't recall the Lich ever being difficult to beat, in either NM or HM.

Shiro, at the end of Factions, was probably the only one of all of them I had to wiki for suggestions, but after you figure out how to take him down its generally pretty easy. He may still be the hardest to pug though.

Abaddon wasn't even worth the 7 minutes it took to kill him the first time through, and he's not really any more difficult in HM.

The great destroyer seemed a bit tricky, right up until half the game populace realized he could be killed with a basic 55 build.

The dungeon bosses are a mixed bag. Many of them are quite easy to kill, but there are the occasional ones that are bloody impossible without some sort of gimmicky set-up. Frostmaw is still quite nasty in HM, Fendi pisses me off regularly (when I'm not doing things as a perma), and a few of the Slaver's Exile bosses are a worthy challenge (again... without using a perma at least).

Elite area bosses are a little more fun... I know plenty of teams and players who still can't beat Mallyx for example. Dhuum was a nice addition as well.

Over all, it probably fair to say that any boss is either going to be too hard for the average player to without some skilled companions, or is going to have a easy enough counter that the boss becomes quite easy (and runnable) over time. Its just the nature of the static nature of the bosses... same skill sets, same spawn locations, etc.

zelgadissan · Jan 18, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45

At the end of a mission like Hell's Precipice, I'd like to see a boss of Shiro standards - hard, but not impossible. Don't dick over 30+ minutes of work to get there with an instant lolwipe in a mission where wipe = kick. Dungeon bosses are fine to do that since wipe = resurrect two steps away.

Against end-game bosses like the other games where you're just dropped straight into the fight (Shiro, Abbadon, Destroyer) I would like to see a battle that legitimately could go either way - something like 60%-40% in favor of the player.

What I'd really like to see is:
a) get rid of stupid ass PvE skills and splits
b) better AI mobs and better formations of mobs so that they wouldn't have to be overly leveled
c) then have your end game bosses be overly leveled using normal skills at high attributes along with maybe one special skill to give them each a unique feel. Of course, this is all a pipe dream and will never happen, not even in GW2.

Popeye1906 · Jan 18, 2010, 01:01 AM // 01:01

I think that the End mission in proph was the one that was made to really build a climax (Armagedon lords, Rurik, leech).

Abadeebadeebadon and Shiro (who turns in a toilet bowl) are just boring. Walk in, kill boss, dont read credits.

High end areas are design for gimmicky team build,(Mallyx, EoTN Maser dungeons, Fow,UW...) and need a bit more preparation and brain cell since the Teddy nerf but are easily doable.

While going for titles like skill hunter, guardian or vanquisher, i always keep a really annoying or epic in some way for last.

For Skill hunter i kept Maw. (biggest foe n Prophecy)
For guardian of Tyria it was Dunes of Despair. ( Annoying for the random spawning of the bosses and the time limit to kill all 3 generals)
Vanquishing Faction was Epic for the fact that it took me and a friend 2 days to do it.

Most epic fun, taking new EoTN players to see the rabbits in Drakkar Lake at the Rabbit Hole.

Eragon Zarroc · Jan 18, 2010, 01:16 AM // 01:16

mallyx = big kahuna ftw

Painbringer · Jan 18, 2010, 02:03 AM // 02:03

In the beginning we played GW and WALLA whatever dragged the game out for ever. Then factions came and Shiro changed the opinions of many. Out came Nightfall and Shiro was back from the grave with an attitude. But nothing compared to Fendi Nin in Eye of the North. Before the gimmick builds taking advantage of weaknesses. It was a hour plus affair to get to him and a whooping to face you at the end. All i have to say is the rez shrine is too far away

Reformed · Jan 18, 2010, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

All i have to say is the rez shrine is too far away

The near side of the bridge before Fendi's room used to have a shrine. Why they felt it was necessary to remove this and force a backtrack 4 rooms away the world may never know.

Pugs Not Drugs · Jan 18, 2010, 02:22 AM // 02:22

I remember how proud I was after I beat Gate of Madness with masters. Those were the good ole' days, before I knew about Discordway and its super pwnage.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 18, 2010, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Tall ones are terribad, especially since you won't be able to really see them. Abaddon, any giant wurm, great destroyer, etc.

What I find intimidating and powerful are bosses like Lushivahr The Invoker. Simple has the boss glow and a shitload of damage.

Pony Slaystation · Jan 18, 2010, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Kanaxai continues to give me trouble. The constant -8 degen coupled with monster spawns makes it pretty difficult.

One of my favorite bosses is the Iron Forgeman, simply because of the unique way that he is fought, instead of just fighting him directly.

Abaddon and Dhuum are pretty cool to fight, although with Abaddon, killing the monoliths can become quite tedious, and it becomes boring pretty easily.

As for the most annoying... I would have to say Fendi Nin. It's extremely repetitive, although it is nice that the developers were at least a little bit creative with it.

Cyndr was a pretty fun fight, but again, tedious.

As for what I would like to see in a boss... basically a combination of Iron Forgeman, Abaddon, and Dhuum. Mostly, a long boss battle, with certain phases. One part may include only killing certain monsters in order to get to the boss, then fighting the boss, possibly fighting his undead soul after killing him. Really, I just want a long, challenging fight, but a fight that changes after certain things are done, so that you are always doing something different and don't get bored.

Mustache Mayhem · Jan 18, 2010, 03:33 AM // 03:33

I thought the great destroyer was a little weak the first time I got to him.. abbadon is fun.. veresh is fun the first time too

iron forgeman is probably one of the most memorable.. duncan and makes me laugh cause he's a midget and has a bucket of hp

fendi is probably the most creative with the soul and how he spawns the crew based on where the soul changes back

wasn't there a ele boss in factions- was on newbie island could wipe the group with one hit.. another one inland around the black moa bird

I would want a boss like that with rocktails range.. so if a guys trying to hide he gets a monster skill put on him called 'lantini' and novas for huge damage taking out team members in the area

or lumo the clown as a dungeon boss with like 5 levels to get to him.. you don't fight him, you just have to copy his emotes.. that would rage anyone who can't type and they'd never be able to beat that dungeon- lumo insults them into retirement

Bob Slydell · Jan 18, 2010, 04:34 AM // 04:34

I was always intimidated by the Charr when I first started. And hey, thats honest...I was low level, didn't know what lies ahead and I had nam flashbacks from Pre's Northlands charr party wipes...

When Bonfazz sent like 500 charr my way in the end of the first mission I was a like..... **** ........

Chthon · Jan 18, 2010, 04:47 AM // 04:47

There's two aspects to big bosses in any video game: The "look and feel" and the nitty gritty of actually fighting them.

Look and feel is hit or miss. Dhuum is probably the best. Lich, Shiro, Urgoz, Kanaxi, the Darknesses, the big Wurms, Rragar/Hidesplitter, Zoldark, and Mox bosses are pretty good. Great Lava Turkey is probably the worst. It's a huge, huge letdown from what I imagined reading the quest texts in Sorrows Furnace some 3 years ago. And it looks like a turkey. I generally dislike proxy fight bosses, and Abbadon is no exception. He's got no personality -- he's just a background animation on the wall while you fight uninspired monoliths. Iron Forgeman works better for me, probably because (a) the fight is 3-D all the way around him, so he's more "present" in the battle, (b) the lore for why it's a proxy fight makes decent sense, and (c) the proxy monsters are unique to this battle.

Now, the nuts and bolts of fighting a boss are a different story. It's impossible, given GW's combat system, to make a boss that is challenging without being "cheap" and "cheesy." You either get something that's too easy, or something that is artificially and frustratingly hard because some normal rule or other is suspended. The skillset available to players is so broad that, if the devs do nothing special to aid the boss, they're going to be able to come up with something that utterly hoses the boss's skillset pretty easily. Unfortunately, the only things the devs can do to even out the fight are to (1) invalidate huge swaths of the player skillset with blanket immunities, (2) increase boss damage so high that you need a backline specially built around heavy mitigation, or (3) give the boss so much hp that the players become more likely to run out of energy or otherwise screw up their execution before they kill it. While these can make the boss harder, they do so in a way that feels unfair and doesn't feel like a "fun challenge." In fact, each of these things makes the boss less fun and more frustrating.

Every boss prior to Mallyx is "too easy." Mallyx is "too cheap." EotN bosses are mostly "too easy" with a few "too cheap" bosses mixed in. Dhuum is "too easy" (although extremely tedious).

So what's the solution? To give up. Accept that you cannot make a boss that's a fun challenge and focus on making bosses with a cool "look and feel" and enough hp that the player realizes it's a boss before they kill it.

Jugalo Dano · Jan 18, 2010, 05:09 AM // 05:09

The immunity skills are pretty annoying, it's a cheap way to make a super villian, but we all know that.

The Lich is prolly my favorite, sorta easy but the mission as a whole is a good one.

Given the mission just before him, abaddon was a pretty big let down. I know he's supposed to be a giant head but when you fight him it looks like your fighting a wall that sparkles.

I like alot of the dungeon bosses, they are easy enough on normal and a fair amount of them are a pretty good challenge in hard. Fendi's battle is dragged on way too long though; it's really unessecary how many times he has to respawn.

jonathan23 · Jan 18, 2010, 05:50 AM // 05:50

I liked Zoldark the Unholy. Again, memorable cause of the unique way he is fought.

headlesshobbs · Jan 18, 2010, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Dragons and flying creatures are disappointing. you don't see them using those wings for keeping out of reach, flying over areas you don't have clear access to and not being able to hit them should you be the melee type. If you want to see the best example, look at the bosses of phantasy star online (youtube if you need to) and you'll see how much this steps aside from the world rules that every creature in this game abides to.

Also whats with giants in this game? I want them to be stomping and flattening anyone who gets within 3ft of them, yet they just stand there trading stats.